FTM 199 – When do you need to submit new PPAP documents.

Fastener Training Minute 199

This edition of the Fastener Training Minute with Carmen Vertullo was originally published April 22nd, 2024 as “how do I know if an installed bolt has been properly tightened?” during episode 199 of Fully Threaded Radio.

Well hello everyone, this is Carmen Vertullo with your Fastener Training Minute,  coming to you from beautiful El Cajon California, location of Carver Labs , and also the Fastener Training Institute.

Today’s topic as usual comes from a question from a client or a student, I can’t remember which. It involves one of my least favorite and most favorite topics in all of fastenerdom.  This is not actually a Fastener, topic it is an automotive industry quality topic, and that’s PPAP (Production Part Approval Process). And the question came regarding when and if a new set of PPAP documents need to be submitted to the customer. This was a kind of a complicated question and I didn’t have a very good answer and I’m not sure I still have a very good answer, but it caused me to drill down on a few things regarding PPAP and I would say that I have a little bit to learn ,and maybe some of you can help me. So if you’re listening to this, one of the things I want you to do is to contact me., all right?  So if nobody contacts me I’m not going to continue with the PPAP series, which I think is worthwhile for the Fastener Training Minute. So when we return I will tell you what happened in this little PPAP question and hopefully clear up some issues regarding when you have to submit new documentation for the PPAP.

Well welcome back everybody, and you know we are talking on the Fastener Training Minute about PPAP. PPAP  stands for Production Part Approval Process and it is a system for quality management in the automotive industry that was established by a group called AIAG the Automotive Industry Action Group, and there’s a lot to know about it, and I’m going to touch on one very tight topic, which is when do we have to resubmit the PPAP documents. Well first you have to know what the Hell are the PPAP documents, and they’re based on levels. You’ve probably heard the terminology PPAP level 1, level 2 ,level 3, level 4 and level 5. There are 5 levels and the level of submission depends on where you are in the submission process. In the very beginning you might have a level 3 PPAP which requires that you submit all of the documents, and based on the level you will either need to submit or retain documents.

One thing that you need to be very clear about, is that none of the levels excuse you from generating any of the required data and there are 18 different types of data that is generated by the PPAP requirement, and you have to generate every single one of them unless you’ve asked for and been granted a waiver by your customer. Now one of the things that can make PPAP a little bit complicated is how many people are in the supply chain. Ideally there’s a customer and a supplier who is the manufacturer of the part. In other words there is not a distributor involved, or some outside processing, and so the manufacturer is going to be completely in control of the process. When we look at the definition or the acronym PPAP Production Part Approval Process, production is the key. This is all about being able to demonstrate control of the production process not necessarily anything about the part itself. So we are not going to look at a finished part and prove that it’s good, we are going to be looking at the process of producing that finished part all the way through, and proving that that process is under control when we get to the final inspection part of the PPAP that’s not to find anything out, that would be silly We’re just proving something that we already know at the final inspection level, which should be true of all manufacturing processes by the way. And as PPAPs go, I think fasteners are probably about in the middle in the automotive world. If someone out there has a better idea about that than me I would like to know. For example it’s probably a little bit more complicated than a doorknob or a door handle or a button, and a little less complicated than a piece of window glass or a piston or something like that.

So if you are the customer and your items are being provided by a vendor who submits the PPAP, that package is going to have at level 3 all kinds of documentation. You’re going to prove that the process was under control before you even made a part, and your customer is going to approve you to make the part. And then you’re going to submit documentation the first time through, (maybe more than the first time but certainly the first time), all kinds of statistical process control data x-bar and r-charts proving that everything about that part is under control. The material certification that came with the raw material. If you used an outside process for anything such as heat treating or plating, you will have to prove that their processes were under control. So that’s where it gets a little bit complicated. If you are a distributor or a supplier between the end user and all these other people providing parts and processes. Now you have to put that package together you have to prove that your tooling works that your tooling is reliable. You have to prove that your inspection tooling is accurate and works properly and there’s a process for doing that called gauge RNR. So there’s an awful lot to it and I just touched on a few things, and I’m going to say once again; if you’re listening to this and you think this is worth talking more about. I could probably do a 10-part Fastener Training Minute PPAP process and then would start from the beginning and get to the middle, which is where we are with this.

So let me get back to the story.

The client calls me up and says: “hey we are having a controversy here because we have a PPAP product which we’ve already submitted our level 3 PPAP information for, and now we’re at level 4 which does not require you to submit anything. It only requires that you retain all of the documentation. So every time you run the part you have to do every single thing that you had to do the first time. It’s just whether or not you submit all of it. And the thing you would normally submit at the end of that process might just be a part submission warrant and then there’s a level 5 sometimes which requires you to retain the information and make it available to the customer upon request. But level 3 is kind of the starting point where you have no choice you have to do everything that is required and submit it to the customer so the customer can approve your part submission warrant. This is kind of a cool thing, because when they get the parts submission warrant you sign it, but they also sign it, so they approve that your process is under control and your parts are good. In this particular instance there was a change. Now when do we have to resubmit data? That’s one of the big questions that happens to us when we’ve changed something. So obviously we have to submit all of the product with a new part, but if there have been any changes to the drawing (that could have been a customer change, it could have been something you requested a design change, we could change the material or a supplier). Any time a supplier changes, either in-house or as a  material supplier or a outside processor, you have to resubmit. If you have not made the part in a long time because this is designed for product that has been is in continuous ongoing production. You haven’t used the tooling for more than a year for example, you would have to resubmit.

In this particular case the change was simple. They had a new material supplier for this wire that they were making the product out of. Now the material did not change. It’s the same alloy, it meets all the same requirements. Nothing else changed. They’re going to use the same heat treating or the same plating or the same process, but they have a new material supplier. So obviously based on the logic of what PPAP is all about. If you make a significant change in anything that could affect the outcome of the finished product, you should resubmit your level 3 PPAP data along with that. So in this case changing a material supplier, even though you have not changed the alloy, or you have not changed the requirements of the material , you would be required to resubmit the PPAP information. That’s my opinion on how I read it. If someone else has a different opinion, let me know.

Technically it would seem to me, and this is where the controversy comes in, if we have a new lot of material, (same supplier), or maybe it’s a wire supplier but maybe that wire supplier gets their wire from different Mills, so we have the same wire supplier but a new Mill, does that require a change?? We have the same wire supplier but it’s a new lot of material or a new heat of material that has different chemistry made at a different time but meets all the requirements. Would that require us to have a new PPAP submission. I would say probably not. For example, if you were submitting a painted product and you’re painting it and now you have a new lot of paint same paint manufacturer comes out of a different can it’s got a different Lot number on it that should not require you to resubmit?

So here’s my thinking. If you change the wire supplier, yes, you must resubmit the PPAP information. Let’s say that wire supplier supplied you with some wire that was from the same heat as the wire you were already using. Should you have to resubmit? Yes you should, because that wire could have been reprocessed by the wire supplier. If you have new wire, different heat of wire, but from the same supplier, should you have to resubmit? And that is the great question right there. My thinking is, no, you should not have to resubmit just because the heat changed. And if someone else knows better than that ,I would like to know the answer to that, and I’m going to drill down on it.

But this is a very small little look right into the middle of the PPAP process. There are so many tentacles that go in either direction from that, but this is where suppliers sometimes struggle. At the end of the day, you could just call up your customer and say; hey here’s the situation we have a new wire supplier but the wire we’re getting is from the same heat as if the previous run do we need to resubmit? they’ll probably be reasonable and say no. If you were to say we have the same wire supplier but a different Mill, yes you probably have to resubmit. We have the same wire supplier but a different lot or different heat of wire, maybe not, but maybe so. So there’s a yes and no and a maybe in there. That’s what it looks like to me. I am not necessarily a PPAP expert ,but I have dealt with lots of PPAP issues over the years and examine lots of people have submissions so I’d like your help on this, and if you are listening please uh get back to me at carmenv@carverem.com.

Well that’s all I have to tell you today about PPAP. There’s a lot more to know if you want to know more get a hold of me this has been Carmen Vertullo with the Fastener Training Minute. Thanks for listening.

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